The Pirates announced Thursday that they’ve fired manager Derek Shelton, who’d been in his position for the past five-plus seasons. Bench coach Don Kelly has been elevated to the managerial position.
“Derek worked incredibly hard and sacrificed a lot over five-plus years. His family became a big part of the Pirates family, and we will miss that,” general manager Ben Cherington said in a statement within today’s press release. “He’s an incredibly smart, curious, and driven baseball leader. I believe he was the right person for the job when he was hired. I also believe that a change is now necessary. I wish Derek and his family all the best in their next chapter.”
Shelton, 54, was hired by the Pirates in the 2019-20 offseason, replacing longtime skipper Clint Hurdle. He’d served as the bench coach in Minnesota prior to his hiring and has also had a long run as a big league hitting coach, spending 2005-09 in Cleveland and 2010-16 in Tampa Bay. The Jays hired Shelton as a quality control coach for the 2017 season, after which he spent two years in Minnesota.
Shelton was the first major hire under Cherington, though he’d been under consideration for the managerial vacancy in Pittsburgh even before the Pirates fired former GM Neal Huntington (a curiously timed move, given that he’d been leading the early stages of said managerial search). In parts of six seasons under Shelton, the Bucs have posted a 306-440 record, topping out at 76 wins in a given season (a mark they reached twice). Pittsburgh is out to a 12-26 start on the season, effectively tanking any faint trace of playoff hopes they had coming into the season. Owner Bob Nutting referenced that grim start to the season in his own statement.
“Derek is a good man who did a lot for the Pirates and Pittsburgh, but it was time for a change,” said Nutting. “The first quarter of the season has been frustrating and painful for all of us. We have to do better. I know that. Ben knows that. Our coaches know that. Our players know that. There is a lot of baseball left to be played. We need to act with a sense of urgency and take the steps necessary to fix this now to get back on track as a team and organization.”
There’s no denying the Pirates’ poor performance under Shelton, but it’s also hard to pin that performance on a skipper who was never handed much to work with. Nutting’s mention of acting with “urgency” feels borderline farcical at a time when, for the second straight year, the Pirates have baseball’s top pitching prospect obliterating Triple-A lineups as the back end of the major league staff flounders.
Last year, it was Paul Skenes, who didn’t make his MLB debut until May 6 and promptly took baseball by storm. Skenes started the All-Star Game, won NL Rookie of the Year and finished third in Cy Young voting. This year, Bubba Chandler is sitting on a 2.25 ERA and 38.3% strikeout rate in seven Triple-A starts. The Pirates’ fourth and fifth starters, Bailey Falter and Carmen Mlodzinski, have ERAs of 5.06 and 6.16, respectively. Jared Jones, their second- or third-best starter, has been on the injured list all season. It’s impossible not to wonder if Nutting feels burned by Skenes earning a full year of service by virtue of that Rookie of the Year win and is thus waiting even longer to pull the trigger on Chandler’s promotion.
Beyond the contradictory nature of those “urgency” comments and the Pirates’ actions with Chandler, Nutting has flatly refused to invest in the team via free agency. The Pirates have never signed a free agent to a larger contract than the three-year, $39MM deal signed by Francisco Liriano more than a decade ago.
As shown in MLBTR’s Contract Tracker, they haven’t signed a single free agent to a multi-year deal since their nearly decade-old signing of righty Ivan Nova on a three-year, $26MM contract. Not only that, the Pirates have only once topped $8MM on a one-year free agent deal in that same span — Aroldis Chapman’s $10.5MM contract in the 2023-24 offseason. Using that same data from our Contract Tracker, the Pirates have spent a total of $173.65MM on free agents since their last playoff appearance a decade ago.
Certainly, free agency isn’t a cure-all that’s bound to fix everything that ails an organization. Major free agent signings can often be a setback, in fact. But completely eschewing even the middle tiers of the open market and steadfastly avoiding any kind of mid-range spending to complement the roster does not put the baseball operations or dugout staffs in position to succeed.
That’s not to say Shelton and the front office are without fault, but the margin for error for those key decisionmakers is rendered razor-thin when ownership is content to average the $69.4MM payroll (excluding the shortened 2020 season) that’s been trotted out in the five 162-game seasons under Shelton. Pittsburgh was 55-52 at last year’s trade deadline. Shelton and his staff clearly bear some responsibility for the team’s post-deadline struggles. However, critics would be remiss not to point out that ownership’s tight budget, which led Cherington & Co. to pursue cost-effective deadline acquisitions like Bryan De La Cruz and Isiah Kiner-Falefa (while subtracting Martin Perez), didn’t put give them the best chance to capitalize on their strong play through the first two-thirds of the season.
The Pirates’ player development — or the lack thereof — over the past several seasons also surely factors into the decisions. Skenes has been a roaring success. Jones looked the part of a potential high-end starter prior to his injury. Mitch Keller, Bryan Reynolds and Oneil Cruz are all quality big leaguers — the latter standing as a potential star. However, the majority of the organization’s top prospects over the years, particularly the hitters, simply haven’t panned out. Injuries have impacted some of them, most notably including Ke’Bryan Hayes and Endy Rodriguez. But prospects like Nick Gonzales, Liover Peguero and Henry Davis have all struggled upon reaching the majors. Other young hitters (e.g. Jack Suwinski) looked to be on the cusp of breaking out before taking significant steps back in their second and third looks at big league pitching.
With Shelton being shown the door, Kelly will now be tasked with the unenviable goal of trying to right this ship. The former big league utilityman retired after the 2016 season and took a role in the Tigers’ player development department for the 2017 season. He then spent a year in Detroit’s scouting ranks before being hired by the Astros as their first base coach. Shelton tabbed Kelly as his bench coach just weeks after being hired, and Kelly has been his right-hand man for the pair’s nearly six years in Pittsburgh.
There’s no “interim” tag in today’s press release from the Pirates. Cherington told the Pirates beat today that Kelly’s appointment is “permanent for 2025” (link via Noah Hiles of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette). He could end up being considered for 2026 and beyond, but for the time being, the team is only committing to the remainder of the current season. That seems to set the stage for a broad-reaching managerial search this winter.
“Donnie is as respected as any person in our clubhouse and throughout our organization,” Nutting said of Kelly in today’s press release. “He is a Pirate. He bleeds black and gold. No one is more committed, and no one loves this team or city more than Donnie. He is the right person to manage our team and help get us back on track.”
Weird, totally out of the blue.
Lol
I would’t call his firing “ out of the blue “
7 shutout losses in first 36 games, 7 game losing streak, 10 out of last 11 games, a loss
Last 12 times, only 14 runs scored
They are on pace to win 51 games
Someone had to be held accountable, Shelton was most likely candidate
“Someone had to take accountability”… Um how about Bob Nutting? You can’t expect the team to be successful when he refuses to invest in the quality of the team. Just like any other business, you have to invest in improving your product if you expect to compete with the best. Bob Nutting is a truly pathetic individual and an embarrassment to the entire sport. He has ruined a historic franchise. The pirates have a great stadium in a good city with passionate and loyal sports fans. Such a shame.
Enrico – So true! Pirates have been my favorite NL franchise since the ’70’s, it’s a shame how far down they’ve gone.
But in all fairness, part of the problem is the economy in that region. Cleveland and Cincy are in the same boat, they need to bring back jobs …. that would boost the income in the region, which would in turn increase the team revenue ….. provided of course the owners spend.
You get swept by the Cardinals, you gotta go.
I get what you’re saying except Nutting can’t be fired no matter how much we want him to go
Unemployment rate in Pittsburgh is 3.9%.
Jobs in technology, healthcare and services are the leading employment sectors.
Sorry but steel is unlikely to return to the 1950’s
.
Where do you get your information from?
@Man 3 , yet your comment above this one is likely typical of what Nutting hopes to accomplish with much of the Pirate fans in the middle of the bell-shaped curve. Appeasing the masses and distracting from the fact the owner only cares about his profit margin, NOT putting a solid product in front of fans to celebrate.
Nutting is bad for baseball.
I don’t disagree about Nutting but facts don’t lie.
Employment in Pittsburgh is of the national average
Increasing attendance at Pirates games only generates so much income. Nutting makes his money on revenue sharing, so as long as the Dodgers are selling a billion Dodger dogs then Nutting is eating filet mignon
Yep. It’s a bummer but we have to figure out how to win as a small market. Maybe if attendance rises or a new cba they will spend more, but no owner would in this situation.
There’s a blueprint for consistency as a small market team. Pirates check none of the boxes. Don’t get good value in trades, whiff on picks, re-sign the wrong players, coach a poor hitting approach. Teams like the Rays, Guardians, Royals, and Brewers are in near identical situations and while they aren’t world beaters, they are at least relevant.
Give the people a reason (a competitive team) to come to the games, and they will come. It doesn’t and shouldn’t work the other way around.
Unfortunately they can’t fire nutting.
Well, Nutting can’t fire himself, so…
Employment figures are a farce.
Anyone out of work for a year is omitted from calculations as left the workforce.
A 20hr a week job at mcdonalds counts the same as a 40hr a week 80k/yr job.
I never listen to unemployment rate as a true indicator of anything
Position player development has been horrible under Cherington’s leadership.
There’s very few players in the minors close to being major league ready
I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying, but BN is far from the only bad MLB Owner. Other franchises with Owners who exhibit all the reprehensible traits you listed have a track record of success. Bad Owners sometimes hire the right people to draft, sign, develop, and coach. The Pirates clearly struggle in those areas.
So in my mind, Nutting should continue to churn through baseball people until he gets it right. This is a long winded way of saying Cherington and many other FO and Coaches need to be put on notice!
I am an actual economist with a doctorate. It is flatly false that anyone out of work for a year is not counted in the labor force. If they are working, or looking for work, they are in the labor force. And there is a specific measure to account for part time workers who would rather work full time. Here is the St. Lou’s Fed’s chart of that BLS number: fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS12032194
You sound like an uneducated blow hard.
@bronyaur stomp….you know who Kai Ryssdal is.
Royals won a world series and 2 pennants. Try and play them right now and see.
Pirates check none of the boxes.
======================
I think they did have the right approach, but the execution is pretty sketchy.
GA-I never listen to unemployment rate as a true indicator of anything
==========================
Some of it is a little sketchy, but I figure that, if they always use the same process, then you have good baselines for comparison.
And they also have a few other standards, that I *might* look at once in a while. Total employment, labor participation rates, hourly wages. Kind of like BB stats.
Rocco still has a job, why I do t know.
AOC has a degree in Economics also and she’s an imbecile. You might be educated but present as a pompous ass.
Good chance my brother created that chart for St Louis Fed.
She’s not an imbecile,to people who are educated beyond high school.
I guess that doesn’t include you
BS! I lived in PA. Nutting could give a sh… about the people of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is not the sad, former great steel town it once was. Pittsburgh is big in both biomed and Medicine, with some of the best staff and facilities in the U.S. Don’t make excuses for Nutting; check his bank balance. I know all about this, Angel fans like me are stuck with the Worst owner in baseball, Arte M. Don’t be fooled, Arte loves making big signings, but when it comes to it, he doesn’t know his head from a hole in the ground (see, I wont trade Shohei to the dodgers), As my late mom would say, don’t cut your nose off to spite your face. He is always first on the list of “Fing” over minor leaguers, many of whom share his Hispanic background. I feel for all Pirates fans.
@theman3 Agree 100 percent. How could anyone be surprised by this!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@theman3 @AI GM: It’s called sarcasm. Look it up.
s/
the internet way of sarcasm
learn it
@mattmoney OH okay. I get it now!!!!!!!! Thanks!!!!!!!
@TheMan3 Are you sure you are not talking about the Blue Jays?
Wish they would do the same.
Excuse me sir? Yes, I think you forgot that the person who commented was laying heavy sarcasm on! You’re welcome
The big question is:
Did they clear this with Oneil Cruz first?
Nothing’s gonna change the trajectory of that organization but new ownership.
Musk and Trump said he had to go
So, DOPE? Department of Pirates Efficiency!
He’s been given a lot of chances. Yet all are players are awful at fundamentals.
Frankly its overdue
FINALLY! (Sell the team though, Bob)
Yeah- the Pirates need to get censured/penalized, etc. like the Athletics were.
Look at what happened when the league *forced* the Athletics to function like an actual major league ball club intentionally trying to compete and not intentionally trying to tank…. they signed ‘random’ but still high profile free agents to deals and *magically* they’re functionally competitive this season. Crazy how that works…
What about Colorado?
Colorado is likely ‘next’ on that list, but they do spend money like a large market club here and there and a lot of their problems are related to the altitude of their stadium, if I recall correctly.
The Rockies payroll sits at $125 million which is just shy of doubling the average payroll in Pittsburgh.
Some owners just suck and spend money foolishly. Arte Moreno is the poster child for this but the Kris Bryant contract is arguably the second worst in baseball behind Rendon’s.
Nutting keeps payroll so low he’s guaranteed a huge profit just off revenue sharing and the league. He fails to even remotely try to compete.
Don’t forget the Ian Desmond contract.
I often wonder about deals like that- baseball is very weird that way, but the reality is they were signing a 4 WAR player… that said- again, Colorado’s altitude has such a huge and very specific impact on the results of players otherwise standard efforts that it’s almost like the Rockies need to accept that whomever they sign that didn’t always play with them from the beginning of their careers is going to crater due to the literal atmosphere of the stadium.
-Dante Bichette
-Larry Walker
-Ellis Burks
-Andres Galarraga
-Jeff Cirillo
-Jeffrey Hammonds
-Preston Wilson
People used to come to Colorado and have amazing seasons. What changed?
@halosheavenjj. You forgot the Stephen Strasburg contract. $245 million for a little over 30 innings pitched.
There’s less offensive talent. That’s the biggest reason. Even the current Dodgers don’t have the talent you just mentioned in your post.
True. That was bad.
At least Stras had great moments for that franchise before that contract. Rendon and Bryant not so much.
@ruthlessly
It seems like with most things, several factors are involved .
The humidor? The AAA franchise swap with LAD for ABQ for OKC?
Pointing to those two options may be post hoc fallacy.
Vinny Castillo made to many quesadillas
It’s worse than Rendon’s because there’s more money and years remaining.
Couldn’t be more right in my opinion.
They didn’t magically get better a lot of there good players were already with the team like Rooker, Sears, Butler, Soderstorm, Miller, Wilson, Kurtz.
Yes but the A’s typically had good, homegrown players. They were supplemented by the cheapest free agents possible and traded the moment they got remotely expensive.
Now that the A’s have surrounded their young talent with actual MLB talent, they are a good team. And a couple even got extensions to stick around and be goof for the A’s.
@HalosHeavenJJ that’s all on the work of Billy Beane and Bob Melvin’s managing, not Fisher.
Exactly. If Fischer had given those two the ability to supplement the young talent with good players and/or keep some of it on extensions I think they could have done well.
ReyDay is right. This is deductive reasoning. The A’s draft and develop well. They have a decent core and were going to be a decent team. Their only productive offseason signings were Urias and Severino
TrillionaireTeamOperator
Look at what happened when the league *forced* the Athletics
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The A’s are where they are because they tanked and rebuilt. Severino, Springs and LeClerc didn’t put them over the top.
It’s sad that Shelton is the scapegoat and this buys nutting some more time to keep doing his thing and make profit
Granted cherington has not been good but he only has pennies to play with
Nutting only stands to make more money once the A’s and Rays are settled in homes and Manfred announces new expansion cities before he retires in 2029. He’s not selling unfortunately for Bucs fans.
Nutting is the problem but Shelton is the low hanging fruit. Typical move. Not defending Shelton so much as saying the team is flawed and cheap and Bruce Bochy couldn’t win with that roster so what are they saying here? They don’t have a clue so what now? Without solving the real problem it’s hey let’s go sideways.
I agree but only to a certain extent.
BC has had 6 years to draft and develop position players and has failed miserably.
Development of players has very little bearing on money.
His drafts have been poor, other than a few players he’s traded for, home grows talent has been dismal.
This is for Samuel
Cruz is one of those players who others have mentioned before that he doesn’t always hustle out of the batters box, and is treated like an elitist
I blame this attitude on Shelton who has never had control of the team
I don’t blame him for the failures. Anybody who’s hired to be the manager of the Pirates feels doomed to walk the plank sooner rather than later.
Feels like he was forced to fall on the sword, not unlike a CEO of a publicly traded company who’s fired due to economic conditions outside of their control… like whoever manages the Pirates, who are notoriously run by penny pinchers trying to field the cheapest, weakest team possible and get lucky.
Walk the plank: I like that one.
Oh, Shelton CERTAINLY bears a lot of the blame in this debacle. He was NEVER qualified for his position.
How can you tell if he’s ready to be a major league manager when he’s largely given minor league players and expected to win against major league teams?
Exactly my thoughts. The Pirates are always near the bottom in payroll every year. Reminds me of when the Tigers made Alan Trammell their manager. In a no win situation.
I can tell because it’s been OVER 5 YEARS and he is still waaaay over his head. His bullpen mngmnt alone cost the Bucs from at least a .500 record last year, which would have bought him more time and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Their bullpen is horrible, to be fair.
He was referring to last year’s bullpen
Shelton is awful. If you know anything about baseball you only need to watch 5 games or so.
The 2024 Pirates bullpen ranked 27th in MLB. Hard to mismanage a pen almost totally devoid of talent. Yet another thing that is Nutting’s responsibility.
Last years bullpen was horrible.
Shelton was hog tied by having minor league talent; for most all of his time in Pittsburgh, the Pirates were 30th in MLB team spending. Last year when Bednar started melting down, who was he supposed to bring in? Kent Tekulve?
Whoever they finally replaced him with after he blew game after game after game. Think it was some Chapman guy.
Pens-I think that it was the guy that AI mentioned who has closed for a number of teams and is in the upper five or so in all time MLB reliever strikeouts.
They were paying him $10.5M to not just stand around.
I read earlier in the season that Chapman wanted to return to the Bucs for this season but Cherington wasn’t interested
Chapman said that he would have been interested to come back but that the Pirates did not contact him.
My guess is that with the signings of better relievers and Santana coming around and the hope that the 2024 season was an outlier for Bednar that Cherington did not want to pay $10.5 M again for one reliever.
If Shelton was the problem then I’ll assume Kelly will be leading the Bucs to the NL pennant!
Kelly should do better. Lots of new better players coming. Why Cherington fired Shelton. See it was Shelton fault!
This decade, if you’re one of Colorado, Pittsburgh, Chisox, Athletics, or Miami….their “winning the pennant” is simply NOT losing 100 games.
Except the Athletics are strikingly competitive through the first month and a half of this term, playing in a Triple-A ballpark.
Don Kelly is smart, experienced and has paid his dues. He’s earned his shot. I wish him the best of luck…
Lots of better players coming?
Aw, sarcasm. Love it
Not sarcasm. As a human meat sack you just aren’t smart enough to realize Gonzales is better than Triolo. Bubba better than Carmen. Carmen makes bullpen better. Horowitz coming back soon. Bednar isn’t totally useless anymore.
Human meat sack?
I guess you must be AI talking, causes any real GM would laugh at you
None of them would laugh at me because I can point out all the stupid things they did.
Outfield-Shelton was one of the problems,and probably the biggest one,and the one that is most easily replaced,especially one quarter of the way through the season.
Tonight’s line is the clone version of Shelton.
Why Triolo and Pham continue to be penciled in is beyond belief.
Need new manager. Pham late scratch. Cherington fired too. Pham shouldn’t be on roster.
Your man Canario did pretty well.
Let’s see if he starts today.
This is a terrible team in all respects, and is made up largely of castoffs and never weres. Shelton is not a very good manager, but to blame him for the failure of this team to compete is to defy common sense. I imagine Shelton feels some relief this afternoon though he’d never say so.
Yet another reminder that your boss will throw you under the bus for their mismanagement the first chance they get. This organization is pathetic.
This is truer than ever in every job / industry.
Shelton same exact manager as 2021 2022. Yet Cherington extended him and didn’t fire him before season started.
I can see why a GM on the hot seat is reluctant to fire the field manager, seeing as it just puts the spotlight on him even harder.
But I don’t realistically expect anything to change. You pinch pennies on every piece of the team, it’s not a surprise when free agents don’t come, prospects don’t get developed, etc.
Exactly! You manage the team with what the GM puts together and the manager is never given much to work with here.
Both of them are mediocre.
Sounds like someone got let go by the Dbacks.
Tj-His boss finally did his job after giving Shelton too many chances to show that he is a ML manager.
His bullpen decisions alone justified the firing
Absolutely
You mean choosing between what AA or AAA quality pitcher to bring in? Get real if you don’t have the horses you don’t win the race 99% of the time.
Well if you don’t bother to train or feed or care for your horses, then don’t even bother.
last year when it was obvious that Bednar didn’t have his best stuff in closing games, Shelton continued to use him instead of using Chapman
Bednar blew 7 save opportunities in games they should have won
Rec’d
Lack of fundamental baseball, lack of discipline with the players, different lineup almost every game
Shelton wanted to be friends with the players and not their leader
He was never qualified to be manager in the first place
He was an assistant hitting coach before becoming manager in Pittsburgh
Why was the offense so bad if he had experience in coaching hitters?
Every fan feels that way about the manager and their bullpen management. I have read plenty of Dodgers fans lament Roberts’ bullpen usage.
If that’s your biggest complaint, it seems arbitrary
Because he had so many quality options in the pen? Come on. They ranked 27th last season and are right there this season. That is not the manager, it is bad pitchers. The problem is not spending money and when they do spend a small amount of money, like on Pham, spending it poorly.
Again, I don’t disagree with your point about the bullpen being bad last year, but using Bednar in close games as the closer and repeatedly when it was obvious he wasn’t the same pitcher as the year before, was catastrophic for this team.
Shelton never considered using Chapman as the closer until it was too late to matter
Yes! I was hoping today would be the day, an off day after a disastrous stretch. Will Cherington be let go at the end of the season? Hope springs eternal.
Hopefully before then!
Cherington should not be allowed anywhere near this year’s draft.
Agree completely.
it doesn’t matter as long as Nutting is the owner
I’m not a Bob Nutting fan at all but the Pirates did compete for a few years when he was the owner. He obviously made a huge mistake with Cherington though.
Holy crap! I did not expect that. But his bullpen, roster, and line-up management has been horrible. You can call the Pirates cheap, and they are, but Shelton has done a horrific job with what he’s been given. They could totally be better than this with even average roster management.
You can blame him for bullpen and lineup management, but roster management is generally handled by the GM.
You can also blame the manager for not actively trying to get the best out of his players and coaching staff too.
Funny you didn’t mention that he allowed players to jog to bases, to admire long fly balls that turn doubles into singles, handfuls of sunflower seeds by the 3rd baseman while a ball is in play and cell phones falling out of back pockets on slides, catchers lobbing tosses to the pitcher with runners on base. The lack of hustle has been appalling. The lack of focus, ridiculous. Add this to the incredible lack of knowledge of baseball basics….yes, agreed.
That’s not what I was most concerned about. Sure, there were issues, but things like Hayes eating sunflower seeds on a play he wasn’t even close to being involved with only ever happened once and his work ethic has been great since. Rodolfo Castro isn’t even on the team anymore. But that doesn’t excuse the lack of proficient line-up/bullpen/roster usage. OUtright horrible decision after horrible decision.
Hayes was picked off second because he wasn’t paying attention to the game last week.
Davis tried to pick off a player at third base the other day and Hayes wasn’t again paying attention, the ball almost ended up in the outfield
Shelton’s lack of player discipline was an ongoing problem
Lack of focus. The sunflower seed incident was the epitome of the term. Maybe you never played the game. Or coached. Or managed. To say this happened “…on a play he wasn’t even close to” would be hilarious if it wasn’t so ludicrous. Little Leaguers are taught to have focus. To be “in the game”.
And his work ethic has been great ever since? He’s the biggest bust signing of the Cherington era and were it not for Greg Polanco, who actually DID have a strong work ethic, we could say “of the last 25 years”
You note Castro isn’t in the team anymore. Neither is Rowdy. Or Grandal. So what? It’s been pervasive
But hey, Cruz is still here. Guess in your book he has a strong work ethic, too
Outsider looking in: your Pirates have a horrendous offense. Really bad, and that is not Shelton’s fault.
I’d rather take the view of Pirates fans blaming Shelton AND the owner AND the GM.
They are all to blame.
Nutting will put more money into the team if they any good like they were 2013-2015.
Cherington has done certain things reasonably well but needs a baseball man over him.His hitting development has been atrocious.
Shelton did not pay attention to fundamentals and did not discipline his players.He also had serious problems with managing the bullpen.
He kept on doing the same stupid things over and over and over and Cherington did not hold his feet to the fire.
This should have happened two years ago.
Every good Pirate fan pretty much knows that.
They will be getting some players back from injury and if Kelly wants to keep his job he will not make the same stupid mistakes like letting hitters take fastballs straight down the middle for strike three.
Shelton is a nice guy but he absolutely deserves to be fired.
Like two years ago.
adding to what you said, Mendoza, this current team leads the majors in called third strikes and hitting into double plays
The Pirates do have some good hitters, but there’s literally no reason to pitch to them if they’re pushing Alexander Canario, Tommy Pham, and Jared Triolo out there most days. There’s been 3 black holes in the line-up most of the time. Derek Shelton is refusing to play guys they call up too. Matt Gorski is getting just as much playing time as Canario, despite going yard in his first game, then refusing to start him. They call up Liover Peguero after he did okay at Triple-A, and keep playing Triolo. Shelton could demand they call up Billy Cook or Nick Yorke, and he isn’t.
Mlb1225
I remember when they called up Andujar and Shelton hardly played him for some reason and they didn’t resign him.
Could sure use his bat this year.
Triolo should only be used in late innings and as a defensive reliever
He stinks at the plate
Shelton liked Andujar and said that he was an rbi machine.
That was one of many goof ups of Cherington that brought us two negative WAR rightfielders last year.
We still do not know how much Cherington and his statistics affected the lineups.
Andujar wouldn’t make a dent in this lineup.
Tbf, Andujar did really well with limited playing time. He’s built for more of a platoon/part-time role than a fulltime role. Wish he were here over Tommy Pham though.
Tommy Pham has a 36 OPS+, Miguel Andujar has a 120 OPS+. Both have about the same amount of plate appearances. That’s an 84 point difference in OPS+. The difference between Pham and Andujar is about the same difference as league average and Barry Bonds (182 career OPS+). He may not be a huge bat, but he would have been a humongus step forward from what they got now. It’s an even greater, 109 point difference in OPS+ between Canario and Andujar. Aaron Judge is 110 points better than league average in OPS+.
No,but he would have last year.
And he was not expensive.
And he is better than Pham.
Improvements all.
Ops+ for a guy who hardly plays lol. Not a good way to evaluate players. In fact it’s terrible.
I would take 44.year old Jason Bay over Pham at this point
AI-97 at bats seventh on the team.Starting LF.Hitting 320 with 775 OPS.Those stats are pretty good for any ML team.
41 at bats not 97 not that 97 is enough.
97 is correct and represents a reasonable statistic for this early in the season.
At this rate he will have at least 400 at bats in the season if he stays healthy which is statistically relevant.
He may or may not have the current 320 average or 775 ops but he would look like Clemente on this current Pirates team at this stage of the season.
Nope it’s 41. I looked it up.
I checked two different sites.MLB and ESPN.
You didn’t expect this???? He’s the first inept manager in pirates history…and you didn’t expect this? ARE you living in a bubble for the last 5 years?
Interesting to see if they keep Kelly for the rest of the year.
No, I didn’t expect it because the Pirates typically make the wrong decision 90% of the time. Yes, I totally wanted him gone, but GMBC has showed very little aggression or urgency with stuff like this. I was totally prepared for him to still be the manager in 2026, simpily because of the lack of urgency and aggression, not because he’s a good manager (because he isn’t).
according to other reports I read Nuttting was embarrassed by the lack of offense over the last dozen games .
Cherington is probably on the hot seat too now
In all honesty I had hoped that it would happen for two years and it obviously needed to be done but I am somewhat like mlb as it has been so long to be necessary that I figured that Cherington could not pull the plug and Nutting would have to do so.
If this was Nutting’s doing then Cherington will most certainly be gone at the end of this year.
@Mendoza I wasn’t completley onboard with Shelton being the manager heading into 2024, but I was completley off the Shelton train after how he handled David Bednar and Colin Holderman last season. He kept trotting them out there like it was prime Tony Watson/Mark Melancon, when they were clearing having trouble, and refused to turn to anyone else. He tanked August and September by doing that. I think this is a desperation move by Cherington. Screams “If you can’t turn this team around by the trade deadline, you’re out of here, Ben.”
Sheldon’s faults have been there from the start.
That team was so horrible the first three years with few ML players that Jim Leyland would not have won with it.But the players achieved mediocrity in 2023 and should have had a 500 record and a winning one last year with a good manager.
Shelton was never going to be a winning manager.
I doubt that this was Cherington’s idea.I think that even Nutting was embarrassed by this debacle.
No one should be surprised by bright eyes not seeing something.
At least this is good news for the Pirates and their fans.
Even Nutting was embarrassed enough to pay him for the rest of the year for doing nothing.
Nutting paid more $ for more years firing Clint. And Huntington and Con.
You are correct.Out of the blue he gave them both four year contracts after two losing seasons.Two more of them got them both fired.
Hurdle was already retired on the job.
Huntington had lost his edge.
But look what they replaced them both with and did not admit to the mistakes until now.
I wasn’t completley onboard with Shelton being the manager heading into 2022. But since Cherington decided to tank Shelton was perfect for the job. They should have 100 percent fired him fall 2022 when they decided they were going to try to contend.
I’m just messing with you above. The hardly playing is Canario. You can’t evaluate a kid with 41 at bats by ops+. It’s a weak way to evaluate players but it’s worthless for someone who has played so little.
I know that you like him and he does seem to have good power.
This is the classic case of how much do you play him if he stinks.
I think that 2020,21,and 22 you give him the chance that you are saying.I think that two months of regular at bats should give the manager a decent look on whether he can hit.
That is also what I said about Andujar.
The problem now,as proven today finally,is that people lose their jobs if players cannot hit.That may a big reason why Canario is not getting regular at bats.
Reason Canario isn’t getting playing time is because the Pirates are idiots.
The Giants signed him. They seem to know what they are doing. Cubs traded good healthy Bryant for him. They seem to know what they are doing. Mets traded for him. They seem to know what they are doing. He makes hard contact and has elite bat speed. 30 hr potential. Why he keeps finding a home. His problem has always been striking out. Like awful striking out. With pirates by their great coaching or just plain luck he was striking out less than league average and they still wouldn’t play him. He’s had some bad games after that so it’s above the average now but still very reasonable with his power. Until it got to 35 40 percent they should have played him. You ride the hot bat. Pham has been awful with awful data. Canario has been awful but with good data. He’s young. He isn’t a free agent until 2031. The choice was obvious. Teams have been trading for this guy with dreams of getting his k rate this low. You got it and aren’t using it. He is hitting the ball harder than ever and cut his strike outs in half.
John Russell says hi
As does Lloyd McClendon
Ok, the seal is broken. Your move Braves.
The Braves aren’t firing Snitker. Best case scenario is that he realizes himself he has no magic touch at his age and retires after the season.
Snitker just steered them out of the cellar using Alex verdugo and Eli white as everyday starters
I think if a manager can work with that then he should be allowed to stay
This would be hilarious as ATL is coming to town tomorrow. Both teams with interim managers. It would make for good TV.
There is absolutely no reason to fire Snitker. If I was going to change anything in Atlanta, I’d look at the training staff. Injuries have hurt the team more than anything.
Getgone2;
LOL
Walk the plank ye scurvy loser.
I am sure Pirates fans are cheering, but like the Reds, the issues start high up.
I’m celebrating more in the sense that it’s one less tired old complaint I have to hear at PNC twice a week.
Like we get it guys…Bob is cheap, Cherington is clueless, Shelton is incompetent. Come up with some original material.
Bob Nutting is cheap, Ben Cherington is clueless, and Shelton was an incompetent manager.
Want more?
The Pirates are honestly a bad team.
And yet, all of that is true, whether you’re tired of it or not
I’ve never personally booed a player or manager, and I’ve certainly never called for anyone to be fired. But unless baseball at PNC means fireworks, pierogi races and hot dog launches to you, those responses are acceptable. And your comment, kind of inane
In defense of Pirates fans, what are they expected to do? Cheer that the team only lost by 3 runs instead of 5?
fun fact
Pennsylvania taxpayers funded the construction of PNC Park.
Fans have earned their right to complain about this franchise considering what we had to pay for the stadium
Fans shouldn’t be saying anything. Shouldn’t be going to games. Shouldn’t be paying for cable. Hurt Nutting where it matters $$$$. Many have. But some people don’t have anything else to do or really love fireworks and cheap plastic junk. Unfortunately it’s enough people to make him $ and not want to sell team.
The Reds are playing pretty well.
I am rooting for you since the Pirates will have another losing season.
Good take reds. The chain of scapegoat firings goes hitting and/or pitching coach, manager, gm almost always. And it often works in the short term pr game because enough fans miss the forest for the trees and blame the people closest to the on field outcomes for under-investment in payroll, flaws in scouting and development, poor team building strategies and etc. You could have a consensus great manager like earl weaver at the helm of this pirates team and it would still be mediocre at best.
But Weaver would have made sure that managing 101 was followed and he would have a fundamentally sound team.
And that is not the owner’s fault.Fundamentals begin in the minors and the manager is paid to make sure that they occur in the majors.
Any Pirates fan knows that they were not followed.
And that is on the manager.
Always seemed like a nice guy and may be a decent bench coach as I would expect he’s good at building relationships with players. But nice guys don’t always make the best managers. He never seemed to know how to kick guys in the pants when they need to be.
I hope the next manager can hit .270, 35HR’s, OPS 850 and drive in 90. If not, the Pirates arent going to be any better than they are right now.
Sorry, but if youre going into a season with Skenes, Jones, Keller and Heaney and the best offensive free agent you can sign is Tommy Pham, that ain’t the managers fault…….
A competent manager can at least figure out a way to get the best out of the players.
This is one of the least talented rosters in MLB. Leyland couldn’t get much more from them
I understand your thinking. But with this team, the problem starts with the owner.
Fully agree, there’s no denying that either.
Come on, Reynolds isn’t a .220 hitter.
Bart only has 1 homer
Tell me how Shelton got the most out of his players
Compared to Cherington, Neal Huntington looks like one of the best GMs of the 21st century.
A team with the limited financial resources of the Pirates cannot whiff on a 1/1 like Henry Davis. If Davis was even as good as Pedro Alvarez, that would be welcome news.
What Huntingdon did here is nothing short of a miracle.
Eventually his bag of tricks ran out, but he inherited two or three guys worth a **** in the entire system and turned it into a 99 win team.
Shelton wasn’t winning but he cost the team already 2 to 4 wins. Using Bednar as closer with no stuff. Using Holderman. Pham instead of Canario. Triolo over anyone.
Actually, I think the GREAT managers figure out a way to get the best of their players but sometimes that best isn’t even good.. Unfortunately, the only great thing about the Pirates is their history which is something upper management is ruining by only caring about the bottom line.
Rocco baldelli
Got this alert just after the alerts that white smoke seen over the Vatican. Coincidence? 99.999% chance of that. But if it isn’t, then things are about to get really interesting!
Maybe if it was the Cardinals manager.
It turns out the new Pope is a Cubs fan, not the Buccos.
That was said by the Cubs.
He is a White Sox fan.
As long as ownership remains the same so will the outlook for the team.
I’m surprised Don Kelly hasn’t been a manager before this. Non including a few times where Derek Shelton either took a personal day off for family reasons or maybe he was suspended. Don Kelly should be a solid Manager. Whether it’s a main stay with Pittsburgh or elsewhere.
There has to be a few extra wins in there just teaching guys how to handle fly balls where two infielders and an outfielder are converging, or getting guys in from third with less than 2 outs. They may be the most talented team in the league at giving opponents 4 and 5 outs in an inning.
And maybe I’m wrong, but this is the kind of a MLB manager shouldn’t have to teach and should have been sorted out in the minors.
you’re right about the fundamentals being taught in the minors but when they lack basic understanding of baseball, it’s up to the coaches and manager to teach them and Shelton didn’t.
It was almost like he would just go through the motions as manager and always had a BS excuse after each loss
From what I seen he is exactly the same talent as Shelton. Maybe he was just following Shelton orders. Will find out fast. If you see Pham Triolo in lineup he stinks.
As if Shelton is to blame for the Pirates lack of success. But happy for Don Kelly. Don Kelly Don Kelly, Don Kelly, you cannot stop him you can only hope to contain him!
Dandy Don Kelly, Mr. versatility himself gets his chance! Hopefully he’ll be able to succeed where many, many others have failed…wishing him the best of luck as he’ll certainly need it
Lol getting no hitters and firing your manager for that is wild.
The manager was expected to take a leadership role and expect and motivate and get the best out of the players.
You can’t get blood from a stone
You can’t name a manager who’d get more out of this roster in terms of talent and ability. Hopefully Kelly will instill the ideas of hustle, focus and professionalism, sorely missing under Shelton
Blaming the manager for Nutting’s cheapness… uh huh, that’s the fix they needed…
Until you figure out the reason Shelton was hired was to perpetuate that cheapness in a leadership role on the field too.
This certainly strikes me as a “See – we did something!” move.
Ya can’t fire all the players.
You could try
Now do the Braves.
Can they fired the front office?
They need to fire nutting.
The Pirates haven’t been right since that hit by Francisco Cabrera
This and a new Pope the same afternoon. Proof that God exists
The situation had seemed popeless.
@66 – I heard that Vance had an audience with Shelton last night…
I guess this gives them a glimpse of Kelly before they would have just promoted him at seasons end.
Shelton was just clueless at times, most of the times
Also a Hail Mary by GMBC to save his job
DONNY BASEBALL, BABY
Actually, this is the exact kind of situation where Buck Showalter succeeds. Get him for two years and Bucs are competing for WS in Skene’s final year.
Agree about Showalter if for no other reason, he’d instill hustle and focus on these kids. But as far as competing for lofty goals? Sorry, not a great deal of real talent here. Only so much a manager can do in this era. If you can’t hit and score runs, it’s tough to win consistently
Finally, our prayers have been answered. He should have been let go at the end of last year. Cherington also needs to go. He had a limited budget but he sure knew how to waste what little money he had on free agent players that were busts. We have third worse record in MLB even with one of the best pitchers in Paul Skenes.
Should have been fired in 2022.
Not his fault. Club owners won’t spend to get/keep good players.
Signing Pham for $4 million when there was younger players who wouldn’t have cost as much is a major blow for Cherington’s record
Not one of his draft picks have been major league caliber
Can anyone say #1 draft pick Henry Davis?
His pitching draft picks have worked out better but you can’t always win 1-0 games
I seen someone on here suggest much better options.
They have much better options right now. Canario much much better. Frazier better. Gorski better. Suwinski better at this point.
He did not help his cause when he continued to show he did not have a plan or path to get off the losing streak. He was critical of players not playing fundamental baseball. That should be covered during spring training. He is (was) the field boss. He needed to go. Yes owner sucks and GM did not make a whole lot of off season moves but is his hands tied. Attendance at PNC will back to 3000 – 3500 that should send a message to MLB. They need to pressure ownership.
As if the manager is the problem. What a joke of an organization!
He actually was, alongside the owner and the GM.
Until we get word that Nutting has sold the team, it doesn’t matter. He’s still a caroetbagger whose sole focus is wealth, we still have a GM who is incompetent, and horrendous player development and scouting departments
Now they should trade Skenes while his value is still high. They could fill 2-3 holes in the lineup and restock the farm system. Bring up Chandler and Harrington. Skenes isn’t doing them a bit of good because the team lacks MLB caliber talent. A trade for blue chip talent would help right the ship.
Probably not a bad idea.
It’s a bad idea until such time as they improve player evaluations for the draft and vastly improve player development. They seem to be doing OK with pitching, but seem clueless on how to develop position players to hit or understand fundamentals. No point in letting Cherinton and the current staff determine who the return for Skenes would be.
Can trade Skenes in few years and do the same thing.
Unless he blows out his elbow or shoulder, which seems more likely than not. Plus, playing for a team going nowhere soon will damage him psychologically.
Shelton gets fired
Bud Blsck has a job today.
Gimmie break
Bud is supposed to be losing. He’s doing his job.
Rockies should hire Shelton then Black can have another Hurdle.
as long as Nutting holds the checkbook it won’t matter who the manager is
Surprise. I was hoping the new manager would come from the Italian league
Maybe they should make McCutchen bench coach as a player coach.
Looks like he would be awful. He doesn’t do anything as a leader. Lazy unmotivated play all the time. Santana would get on people. Why they got rid of him.
They didn’t bring Santana back because he wanted $2 million dollars more than they would pay Tellez and from everything I have read, Cutch has been a leader in the clubhouse
Lazy play and Cutch just lets it slide. Santana would run hard every play and get on people who didn’t. Pirates could afford 2 million. They gave 10.5 to chapman 4 to taylor. They just rather have Rowdy.
They just rather be cheap.
Santana has surprised me in that he is still producing well at age 48.
And,yes,every team needs a clubhouse leader like him who can act as a go between with management inasmuch as he was not afraid to tell players like it is.
Why stop at the manager?
Arguably the best pitcher in baseball and the cheap owner doesn’t give him any bats and now the attendance is going down in one of the nicest ball parks in the league. What a shame!
Nothing about being cheap. Plenty of good bats for under 10m. Under 5. Under 3. Heck 1 for a minor league deal. Heck they have one now and aren’t even playing him.
Skenes trade clock has officially started
No matter how much you want it to happen, Skenes isn’t going anywhere for a while
The fans would revolt, what few still attend games
I was in Pittsburgh on business on Sunday and my flight was cancelled so I got on a ticket app and looked at same day tickets. For $16 dollars I sat behind home plate in Section 16 row G. Little league seats for $16!!
Started when they drafted him.
Came on here to see Pirates fans vent-ebrating. Mission accomplished.
Been a Phils fan forever, but really enjoyed those 1970’s plus Pirates teams and Clemente…well, I idolized him. Never had an issue rooting for the Pirates to do well, and it has been sad to see them being so poorly run for a long time now. Yes- ownership is the main issue and things won’t change until that goes through the spin cycle.
Ownership is only issue. He hired the hockey guy who hired the old leftover failed gm. Obvious Cherington wasn’t getting it done. He even admitted it himself. But Nutting didn’t fire him.
Good for Kelly to get the opportunity to manage, but, isn’t promoting from and retaining the same coaching staff that basically helped get to this point where the Manager is fired a lateral move?
Maybe Kelly is smarter. Bench Pham Triolo Holderman will make for few more wins.
It’s a reasonable firing I guess. That team is loaded with young talent – from Paul Skenes to O’Niell Cruz, to 3B wizard K’Bryan Hayes. Nice mix of veterans too in Keller, Reynolds, & Cutch. Two years in a row I’ve bet them to win the NL central, they are definitely underperforming.
Hey Ben Cherington. Glad you fired him but couldn’t you have done it years ago? What took so long?
Ps. Canario instead of Pham. Valdez over Triolo Frazier.
You can’t play the King and his court and win at the MLB level. And you can walk or pitch around the few legitimate MLB caliber players they have in their lineup. Of the 8 position players they currently start, only 4 (Bart, Hayes, Reynolds, Cruz) could be considered MLB starting caliber. And only one of these (Bart) was acquired under Cherington. (now in year 6).
?Don’t blame Shelton totally but someone had to go! Next step right away is cut veterans or trade them! Start trades today for hitters,some young pitchers have to be part of deals! Come on Ben grow aset!!
Can’t blame Shelton at all. He was just taking a check. Everyone except bright eyes seen this was long over due. Blame everyone above him. Zero percent Shelton fault.
Hah the usual annual sacrificial lamb. This time it’s Shelton. Because we all know it’s his fault… Sell the Pirates and the A’s!
I was at the Coliseum last season for the Pirates/A’s series. Every time A’s fans would shout “sell the team” I would shout “sell BOTH teams”!.
John Fisher sucks and all but his regime produces quality baseball far more often than they do in Cincinnati or Pittsburgh.
Bring Jeff Banister home
Jeff doesn’t do anything important.
That’s two Pittsburgh sport franchises changing coaches/managers…how bout a trifecta, Steelers?
F should have been fired years ago. Cherington should have been fired 7 months ago.
Not firing Shelton. Signing Pham. Using Holderman in key situations. Playing inferior players. All has lead to their record. They could have at least hung around until help arrived.
They should promote York and release Frazier
York is more versatile than Frazier and is 13 years younger
Agree 100 percent. Just dfa before release. Someone might trade for him or at least claim him. Have to dfa first but get point, gone. Frazier is fine if they were contending for playoffs. But they aren’t. Play young players moving forward.
But you realize Kelly is probably just as stupid as Shelton Cherington Williams Nutting right? I hope I am wrong but just have the feeling Frazier Pham aren’t going anywhere.
Trade Skenes to the Orioles for some combo of Mayo, Cowser, Bassallo, Kjertad, Povich. Trade him now before he hurts his arm and he has zero value. He’s the only chip they have that can bring back enough blue chip prospects that can fill 2-3 holes. They can always bring up Chandler and Harrington and put Modlinski back in the bullpen. If they got a Cowser in return, he would play CF and Cruz can move to 1B with his height and wingspan. Horowitz can play 2B when he comes off the IL.
Baltimore doesn’t trade elite prospects. If they did they would have Crochet instead of Morton.
They practically gave away Stowers and Norby, and sent Ortiz to the Brewers for 1 year of Burnes. They will trade them. Stowers hitting over .300 for Miami and Norby just came off the IL.
Those aren’t elite prospects. Good prospects. Top 100 or close. Not getting 5 years of Skenes. Like you said it took 2 around top 100 to get 1 year of rapidly declining expensive Burnes. Skenes doesn’t even reach arbitration until 2027 season. Took 2 well into top 50 for 2 years of Crochet.
Crochet Luzardo Cease is who Baltimore should have got.
Orioles should follow suit. The team hasnt furthered any of their development for the last 1.5 years and that is on the coaches.
I’d say it’s more on ownership/baseball ops for failing to capitalize on their young offensive core by meaningfully fortifying the pitching staff this offseason and making baffling moves like dumping a couple trade chips on the trevor rogers experience.
Too little too late. One thing about free agents,though, is they get to choose who they want to play for. What respectable player wants to play for this clown car organization? Nutting would have to pay double the going rate for anyone decent other than Cutch who is Mr. Pittsburgh. Especially after what they did to Tellez last year.
Now DFA Pham and Canario, send Valdez and Triolo to AAA, put Mlodzinski back in the bullpen, and get some kids up that want to succeed. Play Gorski every day until he proves he is or isn’t a big leaguer. Can’t do any worse.
The farm system is devoid of position player talent.
not exactly true
York and Cooke are talented
If they were, they’d be playing in Pittsburgh.
There’s no place to play them
For some reason Cherington signed 34 year old Adam Frazier, Triolo is only good for his defense and they like Canario who is out of options
Yorke will be up but he is hitting 250 in AAA with three home runs.
Cook looked decent last year but is hitting 188 in AAA.
York and Cooke are talented
They are? I haven’t seen it. Yorke better than Cooke but just a guy.
TJ though is in the next tier or two.
KG top 10 prospect in all of baseball.
They have guys better than Cook at lower levels. Few better than Yorke. Sanford is a no doubt SS. Will see if he hits but he won’t have to much.
York has raised his average by 50 points over the past 10 games. He’s beginning to heat up
What respectable player wants to play for this clown car organization?
97 percent of them. They will play for whoever offers them the most $.
Should have traded Bednar and Bryan Reynolds when their trade value was high. Small market teams like the Pirates need as many prospects as they can get since they won’t sign anyone.
Part of that theory is that they have been known to trade away veterans and their return has never been beneficial to this organization
They to fire Cherington and hire a GM that won’t get hoodwinked
By worrying about service time for Skenes, the Pirates don’t get a PPI pick for his ROY win. And they don’t even get the extra year of control since he got a full year of service for winning the ROY.
If there is any sense of urgency, it should be on part of ownership to promote players when ready to maximize additional draft compensation.
Which is why we arent seeing Bubba for at least another month
Extra year of control is far more valuable than that draft pick. As small market they get a extra pick anyways. Developing Skenes and protecting his arm was the important thing. He had to pitch like maybe no one or a couple guys have ever done to win it. Pirates did the right thing. Just opps he was better than anyone expected.
Another scapegoat MGR. It trickles down from the top. Owner doesn’t do their job >>> GM can’t do their job >>> Mgr can’t do his job. ……RESULT. MGR fired. GM fired. Skenes in pinstripes. Start the suffering cycle again. …….Some MLB franchises have no chance in the current financial structure. The top teams and bottom teams must be penalized for spending too much or too little
A+ Cherington for trying to save his job.
Records awful right now. Fire Shelton. New manager will get a better Bednar. Moreta Endy Gonzales Horowitz coming back from injury. Maybe dfa Pham. Bubba Ashcraft Burrows etc.
Oh look how much better we are. Shelton was the problem!
May be time to move Reynolds, plus a couple young arms should bring back some hitters.
Who are you going to get for Reynolds? He’s not exactly having a banner year
Maybe a few lower level prospects that have no chance of making it to Pittsburgh
Reynolds has clearly gone downhill since he signed the big contract.
He is still a good hitter having a bad year but is clearly not close to elite like he was before the contract.
Now can we fire the owner and the front office
Interesting decision on Reynolds. He has a reasonable long-term contract and he’s one of the better players on the team. I think you listen but he probably stays.
I might move Keller also.
DONNIE KELLY, BABY!!!
Problem solved
Poor guy….beat before he started. Until The Pirates start investing in their team, with better players, and player development, they will never win anything.. Cherrington is either delusional or BS’ing when he acts like they are going to contend anytime soon.
The team surely hasn’t improved their on-field results under Ben Cherington.
I like how every discussion about how bad the team is ends up to the Bob is cheap cliche. Especially when you consider the rumors and implications of the franchise operating at a loss since the new CBA.
Crappy development and/or scouting staff for the past 10ish years is what has hurt the team the most.
NH did a good job until a series of moves that failed miserably along and was never able to recover.
Ben gave hope, but to me it seemed like he was a iffy choice given his greatest success was winning the series by spending a ton of money. His credits for getting young talent were also overstated.
IMO this is Bens year to hit .500 or take a walk. I’ll run the team in the short term and probably do about the same as BC did.
Maybe Bob Nutting should, you know, sell the team if he’s operating at a loss because clearly he isn’t cut to own the Pirates.
I don’t believe anything that comes out of the mouth of this organization.
Nutting doesn’t spend a dime of his own money.
No owner would allow his organization to lose money and not sell it
The fact that he still owns the club and it’s not up for sale is beyond belief
They want people to believe that they are losing money, this way they have an excuse for not increasing payroll
If it continues through the next CBA i bet the owners will push a sell.
A thorough investigation of the Pirates finances showed that they are losing money and the owner is not making a profit.
dkpittsburghsports.com/team/site-stuff/feed?page=0…
Nutting, (yes, we know it’s your burner account) pretty much all those numbers are completely wrong, and you know it too.
How do we all know they are completely wrong? The two teams that have actual open books. We can see exactly what the Braves and Blue Jays are spending. The Pirates are not spending 50% more than the Braves and Blue Jays on both baseball operations spending and non-baseball operations expenses.
So please stop with the BS and actually pay to put a good team on the field instead of lining your pockets.
I rarely give DK a second thought but seems like his nutting derangement syndrome is subsiding lol. Look, you can not like how the owners run the team but is isn’t like they are walking out the building with money bags because they don’t spend.
We absolutely know what the Braves and Blue Jay spend. Regardless of what DK says, the Pirates expenses are not 50% higher than either of those two teams. Nutting is walking away with tens of millions every season.
My pirates are hanging around 500. Canha is doing awesome at 1b. Got Horowitz coming back so will hopefully have a near all star level platoon. I didn’t sign Pham so my left fielder isn’t a black hole. I’m not using Holderman in any leverage situations. I called up Bubba weeks ago. Carmen is doing great as a reliever as he should be. Grandpal hitting well. Skenes is even doing better with a catcher he trust and believes in.
Cheap owners like bob nutting have been crying poor with every cba that baseball has ever had. It was bs from the start and its bs now. Ownership has never been remotely transparent or credible when it comes to their narrative about the state of the books.
Crappy development and scouting is a function of not spending.
Quite unfortunate. He deserved better. Would be interesting to see him on a team that has the financial desire to put a competitive team on the field.
Shelton’s teams consistently beat Pythagorean expectations by 2–6 wins annually, despite a roster ranked among MLB’s bottom five in WAR (per FanGraphs) and payrolls under $80M (per Spotrac, vs. league average ~$150M).
2020: 19-41 (.317), RS: 219, RA: 298, Pythagorean expectation: ~.351 (21-39). Outperformed by ~2 losses.
2021: 61-101 (.376), RS: 609, RA: 829, Pythagorean expectation: ~.355 (57-105). Outperformed by ~4 wins.
2022: 62-100 (.383), RS: 591, RA: 817, Pythagorean expectation: ~.346 (56-106). Outperformed by ~6 wins.
2023: 76-86 (.469), RS: 692, RA: 790, Pythagorean expectation: ~.435 (70-92). Outperformed by ~6 wins.
2024: 76-86 (.469), RS: 665, RA: 742, Pythagorean expectation: ~.447 (72-90). Outperformed by ~4 wins.
In the station of sensation, a historian’s narration sparked a foundation of creation; the Dorian’s ovation met the nation’s vibration, while the Victorian’s temptation led to a celebration of the equation’s revelation. Amidst the rotation and translation, the foundation’s ovation echoed the citation’s elation, as the Gregorian’s narration unveiled the crustacean’s vacation, culminating in the Pythagorean’s expectation of the station’s foundation. I declare the Pythagorean expectation is very correct at that.
@Ally McBeal, pepperoni pizza, Ashton Kutcher.
I guess you don’t like data?
You can use all the statistics that you want.
Shelton was not a major league manager and in part in ways that cannot be measured by statistics.
Why would you say that? In the end I thought it was a good stat analysis.
I said that because that “ theorem” has no relevance to baseball.
Some statistics are used to try to compare a players stats in general to other players.
Maybe they got lucky or unlucky that year,and certain stats can be used to predict which they were.
Losses occur the same whether you lose by one run or ten runs.
Quite often the last two guys in the bullpen are used and two run deficits can become six quickly.
So what.
What does the accumulation of the differentials really tell anyone other than generally saying that the team was good,bad,or mediocre.
This is known much better by the actual record.
My comment was in response to Old York. I think we replied at roughly the same time.
10-4 Thanks.
How was the prediction of losing 10 of their last 11 games, being shut out 7 games out of their first 36 and only scoring 14 runs in their last 11 games
@TheMan 3
When ownership doesn’t invest in the team, what do you expect? It seems he outperformed expectations and ownership didn’t like that fact and tossed him.
Pittsburgh is a historically bad market for baseball. The team is losing money and the owner is not making a profit.
dkpittsburghsports.com/team/site-stuff/feed?page=0…
@RichardJarzynka
Why isn’t he moving the team to a more profitable location? If Pittsburgh doesn’t support the team, time to move elsewhere.
Don’t cry for Shelton.
He should have been fired two years ago.
Any knowledgeable Pirates fan knows that.
They can’t move for a few more years even if they wanted too
October 2022 needed fired. He was perfect for getting high draft picks for rebuild. Awful manager. Players played for him though until August 2024. He definitely shouldn’t have been back for 2025.
that 10 game losing streak after the trade deadline last year should have cost DS his job, not bringing him back to see yet another losing streak occiur
Good cost saving measure.
@Ally McBeal, pepperoni pizza, Ashton Kutcher.
What cost saving measure? They still have to pay him the rest of his contract.
They don’t have to pay for his hotel, food and uniforms.
So when does Paul Skenes press for a trade or when do the Pirates show mercy on Skenes and pretend to be ‘reloading’ with yet another group of prospects that will be worthless while with the Pirates and then flourish elsewhere in a few years?
AI GM
Multiple things can be true at once.
Was Shelton doomed no matter how good he was? Yes.
Was he any good? No.
Isn’t it the best when an organization lags in acquiring/developing top-notch players, and then the manager gets fired because he’s not turning that scrap metal into gold?
It’s even better when the manager didn’t care at all to try and turn that scrap metal into even silver to at least salvage any worth for his own career too.
The manager did not even know how to keep that scrap metal from rusting.
He should have been fired because he stunk.
He was fired because his players gave up on him. And he gave up. He was a broken man at the end.
I agree.
Sometimes it is best to let the guy go when he is clearly overmatched.
They did him a favor.
And his players did give up on him but mostly because they are tired of losing and he was clearly a problem.
He is a good guy but does not have the wherewithal to be a ML manager.
He should get another job in baseball but I doubt that he will ever get another managerial job again.
Next fire cheech Marin the pitching coach..he has tinkered with skenes pitching.
Hopefully skenes flips him the bird and goes back to his old self
Do we know for a fact that Marin has told Skenes to change his pitching regimen?
Skenes tinkered on his own in the off season adding a new pitch.
Whoever changed anything needs to know one thing- if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Mendoza..it was reported on the fan 93.7…but in all fairness they are idiots.
But you are right..ain’t broke,don’t fix it
I can say that I hope that Marin,Shelton,nor Cherington have been stupid enough to tinker.
But I cannot guarantee that either.
Please hire Cervelli next year
Cervelli? Nay, hire A.J., Pirates need some fire in their bellies.
How is Ben not following him out the door? This org is only above the Rockies in how terribly they’re run
He will be gone unless they make a miraculous turnaround under Kelly and I do not see that happening.
There would be too much upheaval changing a GM during the season.
Ben is definitely on the hot seat. He will most likely be fired by the end of the season unless they miraculously turn the season around
To be honest, I’m a bit surprised Shelton lasted as ln had he did and not at all surprised he is being made the fall guy for Nutting’s refusal to fund the supposed “urgency” in a complete team reset.
Let’s face it, Ben Cherington is no Billy Beane and is not going to magically pull a World Series contender out of his backside. Moreover, Moneyball only works if you have the financial backing to grab those high-value players to build your roster around.
The Pirates are an absolute mess and their fans deserve better than Bob Nutting is willing and able to deliver for them.
Ben Cherington can’t build a miracle team? What about the 2013 Red Sox?
Everyone’s else’s fault except the Manger.
The Manger? Are you commenting on the Vatican Conclave?
I commend Mr. Adams on his restraint with regards to Mr. Nutting’s restraint on opening his wallet. F-bombs would have been appopriate.
dkpittsburghsports.com/team/site-stuff/feed?page=0…
Found Nutting’s burner account
Ozzie Guillen
I like Derek, but as the old saying goes “You’re the manager….manage!”
The Pirates are losing money and Bob Nutting is not making a profit.
Life in a historically bad market for baseball.
There are no billionaires who want to buy the team and keep it in the bad Pittsburgh. If Nutting does sell the team, it will be moved to another city as soon as the lease on PNC Park expires.
dkpittsburghsports.com/team/site-stuff/feed?page=0…
Oh,the poor little billionaire! How much more does he need really? Fans get the shaft once again as prices keep going up! Fans should have a say,they are paying for everything!
Wow! DK sports is off the charts wrong. About everything. The Pirates revenue was $314 million in 2024 and their non baseball operations expenses including debt service was $124 million. With $132 in baseball operations costs, that means Nutting raked in a cool $58 million in profit. Even using DK sports number of $294 million in revenue, Nutting still made a $38 million profit with a mostly empty stadium.
Not you again! Seems like every other day you slither out from under your rock.
IF the owner doesnt pony up and spend/acquire better talent; O’neil and Skenes will put in their time and leave when they hit FA
That is ok. But, keep them until then instead of trading them for a sack of unmagic beans. Cruz will be 30 when he hits free agency. this is typically an age when you can expect the decline to begin. And, long-term pitcher contracts are almost always high risk, low reward. If you trade them, you do it at the deadline only if you are out of the race, and only if the trade package exceeds the comp pick value.
And then of course Bob has to throw his 2 cents in, that the team has to move with urgency.
Right. And that’s why you have the front office in a position during every off-season to spend $4-5 million on one year deals instead of chasing the multiple year commitments. Because of urgency.
Ben isn’t the one setting the budget.
What Nutting said wasn’t directed at the media or the players
He was talking to Cherington, basically telling him that the season better improve or you’re next to be fired
Nothing is going to change until Nutting sells the team. They’re 12-26, yet somehow their performance on the field is only like the 5th worst thing about this season so far.
This is the same organization that has had some of the best players to play the game, universally revered. Roberto Clemente, Andrew McCutchen, and a personal favorite of mine was Jason Kendall. This fan base and city deserve so much better.
Hallelujah!
Another that bites the dust
Shelton was asked to make chicken salad out of chicken crap and did the best he could with a totally incomplete roster and that’s a real shame because they have had some very good players come through…this is a total failure by the front office and the fans deserve so much better.
HALLELUJAH
40 games in,shake things up! Need to make a couple trades for more offensive. Change chemistry some. Robert Louis would be nice for one,don’t stop there thou. 72 or early 70’s bucs were 9 out at break and came back! Of course they had a ton of hitting.
The only Robert Louis i could find is a Neurosurgeon in Orange County California. Not sure if he can play defense or hit, at all, but at the very least the decisions this team makes say they could all use getting their heads examined. Which, he could totally do…
The Pirates need more than a psychiatrist unless he can teach them not to take fastballs down the middle of the plate for strike three.
Luis Robert of course says hello.
Louis Robert sorry! Funny ha ha!
“Broad reaching managerial search”
Is there a manager job in Baseball even less desirable than White Sox? If so, this is probably it
No matter how bad the situation, there are only 30 managerial jobs so someone will take it. Maybe they only see it as a steppingstone, but someone will take it.
Makes sense. Pirates definitely underperformed especially offensively.
The main fault is on nutting who didn’t spend any money so the only move they made were pham and horwitz but you could at least expected a 90 wrc+ and the 20th best offense and not a 76 wrc+ and the 29th best offense
Don Kelly is going to do a nice job. He has ML Manager written all over him. He played under Jim Leyland in Detroit. I think he’s an incredible student of the game. He has a Craig Counsell-ness to him, if you ask me.
The Buccos have some talent. I’m betting Donnie is going to get a lot out of this roster. Good luck to him and the Pirtates.
Shelton has not proven to be a great manager, but he has been working with a truly bad team.
The players are near the bottom in BA, HR, SLG, OPS, wRC+, ERA (both starters and relievers), and WAR. Last year was much the same. So was the year before.
He was put in a no-win situation by Nutting and it’s not surprising that the team didn’t win. Not sure that there is any manager that could have turned that bunch of AAAA players into more than a cellar dweller.
playing guys who can’t hit every game ( Pham and Triolo come to mind), shuffling his lineup on a regular basis, using a reliever as a starter ( Carmen), lack of player discipline, Shelton didn’t have control over his team and made bad decisions that adversely impacted the team
Check out reynolds strike out numbers. #2 in the majors. He has had a horrible year
Nutting is lousy owner, period. Don’t need to sugar coat his investment. He personally makes plenty of money through the Pittsburgh Pirates of MLB. It’s a business of his. He is not a ‘sports competitor” or in anyway driven to field a championship team. Firing the Manager is Grandstanding. It makes a facade that appears they are trying. Shelton is the fall guy. It’s a cover.
Beeb- Good post.Let’s hope so.
Yes in some sense a fall guy, but made some strange moves! Ben really seems overwhelmed! Needs to do something, season not over.
Feels like he should’ve lost it last year
BC is fighting for his job. He better do something to make this team better or they better start winning. It’s sad what has occurred
Fire Nutting. Managers are insignificant if you give them a AAA lineup
you can’t fire the owner of a franchise so stop suggesting that.
Everyone knows that Nutting is part of the problem but this is a privately owned business.
I really think that Buck Showalter would be a good manager for the Pirates if his Mets experience did not ruin his enthusiasm.
He takes teams to the playoffs fairly quickly.
He never wins the World Series,but that is virtually impossible with a small market team anyway.
I say give Kelly a chance,but if they do not have a winning record going forward or close to it,bring in Buck.
Fire the manager! Love this. Shelton fell on the sword for a Pirates franchise that for the past 25 years has been a dumpster fire minus the couple of nice runs they had when McCutchen was in his prime. They have spent absolutely nothing trying to improve this team to get them to the playoffs. The owner and Cherington are to blame, not the manager. The Pirates will once again be waste another young group of talent. It’s a shame but Shelton you deserve better than what your front office did.
When you pick a different lineup out of the hat every day. When you can’t manage a bullpen. When you have no fundamental managing skills. When you rest players 3 days a week. When you can’t manage game tactics. When you lose you’re team.
You are not a major league manager. All three are to blame. Cherrington will be next. But you can’t fire the owner, unfortunately.
Cosmos21, I forgot about how Shelton would schedule players days off during the season,
They have all winter to take time off, not during the season
I agree,but again,was he forced to use what the computer said by Cherington?
I read that the Bucs fired their planning coach yesterday who was responsible for sending analytics to the manager for every game.
I have always maintained that this team doesn’t have the talent for using analytics and hopefully this decision is on the right track,
Maybe Kelly feels the same way
ANALytics ruins sports
I’m a Yankees fan, but the firing of Derek Shelton is Utter Bull**it on ownership’s part.
They NEVER gave him a full MLB lineup to contend with. They basically said, Here’s a few MLB players & a ton of AAA talent. Now, go out there in Win!
I feel bad for Pirates fan because one of the fondest memories I have as a child (I’m 70 now) was watching THE GREAT ROBERTO CLEMENTE play RF against my Yankees, who the Pirates beat in 7 games.
I was so AWED by Clemente’s defense & hitting — as a 5 year old, no less! — that, when I got my first good baseball glove, it was a Roberto Clemente model.
What a GREAT PLAYER & AN EVEN BETTER MAN, Clemente was!!!
So, Pirates fans, I empathize with your pain & frustration over your crap ownership. Hopefully that idiot sells to someone who actually cares about winning.
I’m a Yankees fan, but the firing of Derek Shelton is a disgrace on ownership’s part. They NEVER gave him a full MLB lineup to contend with. They basically said, Here’s a few MLB players & a ton of AAA talent. Now, go out there in Win!
I feel bad for Pirates fan because one of the fondest memories I have as a child (I’m 70 now) was watching THE GREAT ROBERTO CLEMENTE play RF against my Yankees, who the Pirates beat in 7 games.
I was so AWED by Clemente’s defense & hitting — as a 5 year old, no less! — that, when I got my first good baseball glove, it was a Roberto Clemente model.
What a GREAT PLAYER & AN EVEN BETTER MAN, Clemente was!!!
So, Pirates fans, I empathize with your pain & frustration over your Awful ownership. Hopefully he sells to someone who actually cares about winning.
You can say that again!
Only time that Mickey Mantle cried after losing a baseball game.
Casey Stengel lost his job because he did not start Whitey Ford in the first game.
And he should have.Ford was close to Koufax in being so dominant for four or five years.
The Pirates will never be able to afford superstars that win World Series anymore.
But the Yankees are still the greatest team ever with 27 World Series titles.
By the way,Shelton was a bad manager and was very lucky to have lasted as long as he did.
Good thing the worst manager in history Bud Black still has his job rolling on
This is BS. Scapegoating by ownership.
Imagine if the Pirates had a roster anywhere close to this baseball-reference.com/teams/PIT/1990.shtml
or this
baseball-reference.com/teams/PIT/1991.shtml
or this
baseball-reference.com/teams/PIT/1992.shtml
Sid was safe.
Shelton probably had to go, but imo, BC has also not done a good job. The Pirates pro talent consists primarily of Cruz, maybe Reynolds, Jones, Skenes, Keller, and Bubba in the minors. Only three of those players belong to BC, and Skenes only by virtue of having the overall #1/1.
And he has a very meh farm considering they generally get high draft picks.
Nutting is right about two things.
It’s time for a change
And it is frustrating
Don’t put the money on your payroll don’t dare demand it’s the problem.
Pittsburgh has a chance without nutting. With him we are doomed.
I don’t think there is a manager, past or present, that could have this roster in contention. That being said, Shelton is terrible at in-game management. His lineups and misuse of the pitching staff, starters and relievers, is just awful. He has cost the Bucs several wins each year. If managers had a WAR he would be between -6 and -11
You’re being generous. His negative WAR would be closer to triple digits! I can’t think of a single game where his “managerial skills” won them a game.
A scout was recently quoted as saying GM BS “couldn’t tell Mickey Mantle from Mickey Mouse”… and he is correct!
Good to see Donnie Baseball get a shot. Really liked him in Detroit
the issues with that org go all the way to the top. i credit cherington for the ballsiest trade in my lifetime but imho the pirates should have a stronger farm system for all the top picks they’ve “earned.” no comment on nutting except to say what’s the point of revenue sharing if the money isn’t spent?
Pirates must be thinking they can be like the minor league marlins from who won the 2003 ws or the astros after years of losing have the
draft picks and promoted aaa players win. But they haven’t added the complimentary pieces in free agency. Pirates did have some shot at competition in 2023, but they didn’t carry it over into 2024 or 2025.
The writer obviously has not been WATCHING the Pirates. Shelton was a HORRIBLE manager! He was stone-faced John Russell, but with a beard to constantly scratch. Cherington is also horrible & should’ve been fired with him. The only reason GM BS still has a job is because he lucked into winning the Draft Lottery for Skenes. Even he couldn’t screw that one up! With Fraudington still the GM, Kelly will still be forced to play Tommy Pham on a daily basis.
Firing mid=season almost always makes the ownership look foolish and wishy-washy. I am sad that ownership treats the Pirates so poorly. My grandmother who is with the Lord, loved everything Pirates and anything Pittsburgh and even she never liked how ownership treated the team. Not to fault Derek Shelton, but he did know what he was getting into, I am sure he took the job for the experience and resume reference.
“Donnie Kelly Baby!!!” – Jim Price
I really wanna see the Pirates back in contention soon. Their fans deserve it. If only the owner will sell…
The Braves pitcher isn’t known to be a strike out pitcher but in 4 innings, he’s already struck out 6 Bucs
Bart twice, once looking
Dream should be happy, Canario hit a homer
At least they won’t get shut out
I’m happy for Canario. If he didn’t hit a hr and was dfa and no one claimed him it doesn’t mean I was wrong. It means every pirates fan and all 30 MLB teams were wrong. It happens all the time. Hopefully they realize how impressive that hr was and they start him everyday and he hits 20 more hrs. They wasted a month of the hottest stretch of his life already. That time is gone but doesn’t mean they have to waste anymore.
Unfortunately I think Pirates management is loaded with narcissist idiots and instead of admitting Pham was a 4m dumpster fire waste of $ they will keep playing Pham. Pham shouldn’t even be on the roster at this point. Pham was supposed to start tonight last minute scratch.
What does it say about a team when their oldest player drove in the winning run ( Cutch)?
Another double digit strike out performance by this lackluster offense.
12 ks vs 0 walks
A win is a win but their offense isn’t going to win many games scoring just 3 runs
You’re going to give them ideas. Oldest player driving in runs huh? Hey Pham is old! Maybe he can drive in runs too? Let’s start him!!!!!!!!!!
Replacing Shelton with a different manager will have not improve the Pirates. It is the players on the field that are not performing. Do not love Shelton, but a better manager would have the same results.
I disagree, Shelton was a horrible manager.
This has been repeated multiple times by dire and avid Pirate fans who have followed this team for years
Shelton lacked discipline to his players, allowing them to get away with not playing basic fundamentals, misued the rotation and bullpen, wrote different lineups almost every game and used players that had no business playing every game
Kelly looks horrible as well. But at least he isn’t Shelton. Players quit on Shelton. Why they fired him. He was always terrible but his guys still played for him.
Shelton probably cost 3 to 5 wins already. He’s that bad. Don’t think Kelly could have made them up but a good manager could. They were very basic things.
Are you telling me the former Rays hitting coach wasn’t able to turn a franchise around? I’m shocked. Someone take our current hitting coach too!
Sad. Shelton definitely wasn’t the problem but he’s not adding anything to the table. He’s supposed to be a hitting instructor yet, are offense numbers are bottom tier in every category.
We have a promising young rotation and we shouldn’t be wasting it. Cherington and Travis Williams are next.
Nutting would be great to go, but owners can’t get fired unless he has a sex scandal we don’t know about